Thursday, May 27, 2004

UK vs. USA Battle Royale!!!

The following is a re-cap of a conversation Gareth (from mootblog), Jonny Baker and I had in nashville. At our meal of barbecue and beer, I launched into an as yet unwritten analysis of UK vs. USA emergent culture.This shows a gross generalization of us and uk churches. It isn't intended to offend, but rather to give a way to see some of the larger picture of church culture.

Gareth's re-cap of my ramblings from his blog:

In the US church:
1. churches still want programs (e.g. 5 steps to convert the emerging generation)

2. Mega-churches are still succeeding and growing, to a certain extent they embody what many people want from church

3. pastors are still very much career people - setting up an emerging church for a maximum of 50-100 people for not very much salary or working part-time in Pizza Hut does appeal very much at all to pastors on $70,000+ in large churches

3. Success is still the operative measuring stick - if a 'program' is not getting bums on seats then it is not a success in Kingdom terms

4. The post-WW2 period in the UK which saw rapid decline in church attendance across the board (save for some renewal from the Charismatic movement) actually had a positive side - out of this fallow ground grew the shoots of what we would now call the 'emerging' church, without this fallow period we may never have seen the creativity and imagination during the last 15 years

5. Unless the US evangelical church (which has for all intents and purposes become a civil religion) undergoes a serious decline in attendance or an incredible turn around in attitudes towards the make up and purpose of church, then the great opportunity presented at this time for the church to become a creative imaginative force may well fade away.

He actually said this so well, it was way better than the original.

i'll try to fill this out, responding to one of Gareth's points per post over the next week or so. I'd enjoy comments from anyone who has experienced both cultures. The more the merrier!

But this post is to give my basic overview of the situation. It's essentially

The US is just different from the UK and y'all are lucky. J & G were kinda.. "gaa" what do you mean?
Well:
After WWII the UK had quite a spiritual dark age. They had the crap bombed out of them.The US was bloodied, but not bombed. War is hell and the Brits no longer had a cheery view of the nature of man, or the providence of God. They had some churches which became successful but most declined, and essentially went off the radar screen of UK culture.

In the US, Billy Graham's ministry took off in the late '40's and the 50 year American evangelical revival began. With high hopes, nuclear bombs, a clear enemy, and a booming economy, life was great. Campus Crusade, Intervarsity, Nav's all began to make major inroads on college campuses.

By 1975 high school and college kids in the US were experiencing salvation in record numbers. College fellowships of 1000 students were commonplace all across the US . The Jesus people had made their impact and now the fruit was showing. From these christians came the massive church planting, and mega church movements. WillowBack style churches would begin popping up everywhere. Calvary Chapel, Vineyard, Foursquare, AG were all growing like weeds.

However, in the UK during this time, only a few churches saw anything like this growth. But not hundreds and hundreds of 1000 member churches hatching like rabbits.

And that makes all the difference.

So in the UK starting a youth ministry meant that you had 9 or 10 kids, and the rest you had to meet on the street, or in clubs. There was not the same "if you build it they will come" as in the US. Nothing was that easy. Slick programs meant almost nothing. And so:

1. In the UK if you wanted to present the good news, you better not use that old fetter, the anglican church. So gospel had to bypass church, and deal directly with culture.( See Roxburgh) The result was new forms, new wine skins. Great wine. Any success wasn't based on a great band, or great preaching. Both of those were "generally" already passe. UK youth didn't believe the preacher anyway.

2. This created a small, new, developing culture of creative people in the UK participating in the creation of worship, having to create new things, not waiting for the professional to give permission, letting the process be messy, and having to learn lots of new things constantly to keep up with culture. It seemed everyone I met at Greenbelt last year in the UK was so comfortable with culture and would be so much more effective than me. Greenbelt, a UK arts festival, began in 1973. So this group has been developing for 30 years.

3. Much of the opposite has happened in the US. Church and gospel were one, and culture didn't care, didn't listen, and became even more defensive against the gospel! But frankly the church didn't freakin' care if culture doesn't care!! There are millions of us and we want culture to conform to us. Just a tad arrogant. Just a tad. And we have professional everythings. Freaking everything. Music, worship, Leadership, Preaching, yada, yada, yada...We've created a culture of spectators. The spectators are told to tithe, read, pray and everything is fine. And we pay those professionals lots of money. lots. It's safe, easy, power based and has some semblance of being a career.

4. Now 45% of the US considers themselves either born again or evangelical. 45%!! Jesus! If I'm a seminary student; do I want to make miniscule gains, create new things, have messy ministry, live and work in the dirty city center, or do I want to make money, have lots of clout, live in the 'burbs, see lots of "fruit." Doh? Pretty simple.

5. New UK ministries (that's all there were because the old ones gave up the ghost) became much less "extractional" (See Frost and Hirsch) than ours. They went to culture, outside of the church (cause there wasn't any, really), to love people. We on the other hand, wanted people to leave their culture, get saved, come to our building. Crap! We succeeded. Double Crap.

So when Lilly and I visited the UK in '01 and '03 we noticed how so many of the ministry leaders were outside church, most of whom didn't get money from church, were comfortable with culture (not afraid of it), and did ministry which normal non-religious people would like. We saw this at Grace, holy Joes, Revelation/Warehouse, Greenbelt, etc. These people knew culture, were fluid in it and made a difference. Conversely across the pond, leaders told people in the US that culture was bad, could poison them, steal their children, and make them adulterers. So not only are US Christians afraid of culture, we've been disconnected from it for so long that we are awkward and seem "dorky" in it. Like a whole generation with "high water" pants. We also told them the lie that if they stay in church they wont be soiled by culture! How totally impossible is that!

As a result of all this the UK is 10 or 15 years ahead of the US in doing and experiencing "emergent" stuff. It will also probably develop and grow better than in the states. Why? Because so many young passionate believers in the states will opt for the accepted route in ministry. The model and resources of the established evangelical churches in the US aren't going anywhere. They will be intact for the foreseeable future. We have made inroads, but what happens when the status quo is challenged? We will get marginalised! Count on it! If bookstores can ban McLaren's books, anything is possible. If you can be angry with someone that humble and accessible, wow.. you can be mad at anybody.

Taking another bite of barbecue, I stated that the UK was probably the best training ground for young emergent types, since the DNA of taking the gospel to culture, and comfort with culture already exists. And that seems so difficult to find in the US. Most of those going to culture in the US seem so religious, and patronizing. Even with the best of intentions.

And lastly for this post... so many of the seminars focused on "transitioning" existing churches into the emergent matrix. Jonny and Gareth were "uh, why." Because many of us in existing churches believe, to our detriment, that marginal change, not developing all-new wine skins, is the order of the day. We are drawn by the siren song of the 75 million evangelicals. "Well, if just a few of them got excited..." instead of learning the culture and taking the gospel in a new way to the culture. We still first assume that we are church people, and ministry happens from church, with church and in church; instead of active people of faith with good news to incarnate. People we touch we will learn to love, and then enjoy friendships with them for a long time.

So the folks at EC fall into two basic categories: 1. those expecting to bring emergent stuff into already existing churches or 2. those small few who will build new wineskins and go to culture outside of the church. Jonny and Gareth already live in a UK church structure which knows it won't ever reach culture. So they support lots of little ventures as multiple little viruses (Roxburgh). That's what UK denominations have known for years. Only 5% (if that) of the US denom leaders get this. Again, still lured by the money, and ease of attracting the already convinced.

Now, I make fun of Jonny hanging with the Archbishop of Canterbury, but Rowan Williams (not atkinson) knows his name. Really. Why? Cause Rowan knows Jonny has answers, and religious people don't. So he surrounds himself with people like Jonny who are in culture. Most other leaders won't.

When speaking to Emergent types in the UK, they never seem to have real jobs. (except for the Rev Dr. Dawn) A project here, and 2 year ministry launch there. They create proposals for foundations etc. They don't have church jobs. Because church jobs don't really exist. Jonny and Gareth have assumed that the only folks who have full time jobs, which don't need other income, are Anglican priest types; in the church culture. Everyone else there doesn't depend on church, it's not strong enough to carry everyone. They've disconnected from religious stuff, with money, worship, and have found new ways to incarnate jesus.

So that's my little overview. Any comments?

More on Gareth's comments later.

rob

135 Comments:

At May 28, 2004 at 9:05 AM, Blogger jonny said...

rob
thanks so much for taking the time to write this.... wow!

a few thoughts...

1. i am really not that good friends with rowan! he probably doesn't know who i am :-)

2. the communities you have encountered are probably the most adventurous in terms of cultural engagement. we have plenty of youth ministry and other stuff that runs on the underlying logic of rescuing people from a dangerous place (culture/the world) to a safe one (church). thus just perpetuating the christian subculture. the difference is that there aren't as many people or industries in it so it's harder to live in that bubble than it is in the US.

3. i really cracked up when i saw you'd lost your comments. i would hate it but you have to see the funny side. you leave your blog unposted to for months - virtually no comments. you start blogging again and suddenly you're looking popular with commenst left and all!!! then you go and delete the lot - wow what an act of humility !!!! :-) anyway i'm starting to try and build up that look of popularity for you again...

4. you quote mr roxborough a lot. i didn't catch him at emergent and don't know anything about him. who is he and what's he written that i should read

5. i'd love this to be a piece on emergingchurch.info if you're up for it? i'll ask the editor...

6. thanks for lunch...

 
At May 28, 2004 at 9:37 AM, Blogger rob said...

Thanks for all this!!
Thanks for noticing that I had something to contribute!
rob

 
At May 28, 2004 at 9:46 AM, Blogger Karen said...

hi aidan,

sorry i was not in nashville (only san diego) and did not get to meet you!

i'm karen ward and i now blog at 'www.submergence.org'

great analysis! at my home base (church of the apostles seattle), we are more on the u.k vibe, seeking to be new wine skins in culture.

when i met jonny and gareth (recently in san fran), it was a meeting of kindred spirits.

apostles is also anglican connected (episcopal church) and seattle (and the northwest of usa and canada) is similar to the u.k in that church is bascally 'off radar' for the dominant culture.

in washington state, the majority religion (on most surveys) is 'none' and less than 10% are members of or attend any organized religious meeting, period.

apostles does not have much company (swimming and diving directly into culture here) and i often get bored and frustrated at many 'emergent' events, cause to me, they are much less emerged than they believe and many are still very deep into the 'new evangelical cool coffee and candles in church thing' and making 'toy' versions of culture within church (like christian bands that 'sound like' somebody) rather than dealing with the real culture on the culture's turf.

so mostly, i relate to to the u.k, nz and au for deeper mission in culture dialogue, as our culture here in 'cascadia' is truly is post christian, and the whole evangelical church cultural force is not a factor here.

peace,

 
At May 28, 2004 at 9:50 AM, Blogger Karen said...

sorry, rob for calling you aidan in my previous comment.

on many blogs, it is hard to tell the name/identity of the blogger.

got a bio page?

 
At May 28, 2004 at 10:06 AM, Blogger rob said...

Karen,
I am Rob, and go with Lilly of Oasis at Christ Church here in Cincy. She's been doing a youth experiental worship/ prayer thing at an150 year old Episcopal church for a few years. I went to UDUB was on the crew team, and worked at Eastside Foursquare and UPRES. So I read your stuff when I can, when you post.
I'm sure we'll meet sometime soon. Till then be encouraged. You rock, and what you are doing is necessary. Lilly and I met Rachelle from ThursPM in Freemont. Do you all hang at all? She's a playa!
More later,
rob

 
At May 28, 2004 at 11:06 AM, Blogger Will said...

Rob: great summary of some very big ideas. I don't think that we (the American church) has begun to count the cost...what could, and very likely will, be required of us. Thanks for making things a little clearer.

 
At May 28, 2004 at 11:27 AM, Blogger Lisa said...

Rob, this is just a wonderful analysis - so many great insights and ways that stuff is uncovered.

Let me pile on a bit:

* The U.S. church status you describe is extremely accurate for the states that people on the coasts derisively refer to as fly-over states - the mainstreem of the country in terms of land mass. But the major urban centers - where increasingly the population base resides - are looking more & more like the UK & Europe, with upwards to 80-90% folks who not only are unchurched but are 1 or 2 generations removed from any church context. This (http://thecorner.typepad.com/bc/2004/05/duck_hits_winds.html) piece of data I "hit" teases some of this out.

* The formerly mainline, now sideline denoms (Lutherans, Presby, Meth. Episcies) have been in an accelerating decline over the last 40 years. Being amongst them, for me at least, is a bit like that scene in MONTY PYTHON & THE HOLY GRAIL - bring out your dead, bring out your dead - I am not dead yet, I'm getting much better. Two of the forces at work here are just toxic. One is the denial of death & the distraction cycle that so many of us in these tribes are on. Look at the last 40 years of the now sideline denoms - they've been knee deep in many of the issues (women in ministrt, images of God, pluralism) that the 'gellies & ec are just now beginning to toy with. These tribes have gotten sucked into the politics of these vexing issues, trying to find some mythical "middle ground" rather than trust that resurrection comes from death - death of ministries, death of buildings, death of pension funds. Which brings me to the 2nd force - the institutional money stakes in the sidelines is HUGE - rather than the Pizza Hut option you lay out, the pernicious trick here is the promise of a pension. Screwtape whispers - stick it out, lull yourself, deny deny deny - at the end of this road is a retirement you could never dream of with your liberal arts degree.

* The 'gellies & sidelines are, to me, both gasping white men of modernity, struggling feriously to re-gain their power. At the tail end of cycles, people losing power always seem to go scorched earth, don't they - one need only look at GWB or the same sex wars in the US to see a wacky attempt to distract ourselves from the sickening, sad hunger that so many of us feel. My church history course gave me hope hhere - xians have been done this road since when we figured out that it was not a physical double feature. Churches become, over & over again, empty vessels that act like prisons for the stuff we project onto them.

OK, I have done as much as my 2 finger typing can do for a moment....

 
At May 28, 2004 at 1:18 PM, Blogger lillylewin said...

hey rob!
glad to see you back in the thick of blogland!
a few thoughts ...
i have felt for a long time that the american church is missing the boat.
we are actually on the banks of denile...
we argue about culture and keep expecting that the culture wants to be like us.
america is a post christian nation....in many respects, we just have lots that prevent us from accepting this fact. (like a lot of money, mega churches, top selling christian books, music, and more money)
as bob says, the fly over states may still feel christian...i know that here in cincy the news and advertisers actually know what lent and passover are!
but even here in the conservative midwest, we have post christian pockets of folks who are not even on the radar screen of most christians/most churches.
we keep expecting them to want to be like "us"
we don't have many clues of how post christian folks think, what they like, what they want...
we let them create their own places to be....usually near college campuses, or urban centers where arts and alternative are acceptable.

where are the missionaries!!!!
where are the people in the usa who will rip off the blinders and who will go and be a part of people's lives?
who will go and live in their midst, not in the holy huddle?!!!
who are called to live out our lives being kingdom people...NOT CHURCH PEOPLE!!!
and as many of us know, post christian doesn't mean post-spiritual!!!
these folks are very spiritual and more wholistic than most of us who follow jesus! we can learn a lot from them!
as you like to say : jesus didn't die for 2 hours on sunday!
jesus is expecting us to be his followers who are helping others on the journey...bringing his kingdom 24-7...not just in africa but on main and broadway, in clifton, and the u district.
lil

 
At May 28, 2004 at 1:29 PM, Blogger jonny said...

don't you two live in the same house? you should talk :-)

 
At May 28, 2004 at 1:36 PM, Blogger Ecclesial Dreamer said...

GREAT POST!

I remember reading an article a couple of years back from Group magazine that spells out this argument pretty well. I started explaining this concept (that the old needs to die in order for the new to emerge) in the church I was a part of. Now I am no longer there (those with more influencial power in the church decided to go in a more stable direction).

I really think you hit the nail on the head and drove it! I think you are right especially about the issue of resources and being marginalized if you try to do something different. There is a small group here trying to embody this in a different way and it is HARD. When I talk to leaders of local established churches I spen so much time trying to justify why we should have a right to do what we are trying to do that there is no way they will support us. So that means we are forced to try and follow our ecclesial dreams with no support. Which by itself is no big deal but then when you try to sit at the "real church" table no one will acknowledge you. Unless you have a building or rent a school gymnasium, have a paid pastoral staff, and a vision statement you are not allowed to be considered a part of the "real" church.

The American evangelical church is certainly an interesting obstacle to "emerging" ecclesial dreamers. I will follow this thread on your blog with great interest.

Thanks. James

 
At May 28, 2004 at 5:54 PM, Blogger rob said...

Wow,
thanks everyone.
1. Bob-- I totally agree regarding costal cities vs. inland cities.
2. Lil-- we really do need to talk.. i never knew...

One of the experiences I had at that lunch was Jonny and Gareth's suprise at how advanced they were and what a massive contribution they've made. I'll post on this tomorrow.

rob

 
At May 28, 2004 at 6:02 PM, Blogger rob said...

Jonny,
My referenceces to Alan Roxburgh are from his amazing seminar at EC Nashville. I'd recommend everyone to order it from YS/Emergent. It was titled "Prophetic Imagination" In 20 minutes he analyzed all of Leslie Newbigin's 3 books. Monster brain, how does he hold his head up. I wanna be his best friend. It really talked about where the fallowness came from. Just fantastic! If I were a Brit!

 
At May 29, 2004 at 3:29 AM, Blogger maggi said...

Hey Rob. the rev'd Dr here. good to read your summaries and thoughts - hitting quite a few nails on the head! My tuppence worth: I'm not the only one in this scene with a 'proper job' (so does Jonny Baker, Ian Mobsby of Moot, and quite a few others...) but those of us who work 'in the Church system' in the UK seem much more able to remain rooted in the broader culture. (for instance I would never go to Church for entertainment or culture - that's what the theatre is for...)

The pension and salary benefits of a ministry post are not so good in the UK, so that's not particularly distracting; consequently the only serious motives for seeking any kind of acceptability within the denominational Church would be quite good ones. My main motivator is seeking theological and liturgical continuity with Christian history - finding out how to be creative without re-inventing the wheel.

A further reflection is that the Emerging Church (in the UK at least) is almost exclusively Emerging out of Evangelical cirlces. I'm not the only one with a 'proper job' but I'm one of the few who - if you look under the skin - is not an Evangelical. In the liberal, intellectual world I live in there are many, many Christians who would not identify with Emerging/Emergent because they are not Evangelicals, but in fact have a strikingly similar vision of culture-infused faith (or faith-infused culture?). So there's a kind of artificial divide there - it's not visionary Emergent versus dead denominations: both life and death is there in both trad denomnations and in Emergent.

There are, of course, people in Denominational positions such as Bishop, Archdeacon, etc, who wouldn't label themselves as Emergent. But I know a number of these guys in person, and we have a lot more in common than you might think. Part of the reality here is that response to cultural change will inevitably involve closing down parts of the Church structure that are dying or no longer relevant. However, it takes some time and thought to be sure you shut down the right things ant the right time. To shut things down overnight might appeal to the young radicals in our midst, but it's not the way of Jesus. To deliver structural change with grace, love and dignity takes time, effort and wisdom. There are many, many people who know and experience God (yes, that's the same God we worship) within these somewhat anachronistic structures. It is not for us to shut off their life-support system; we may need to scale down some operations, but we need to do so without sacrificing lives.

So, the point of this rant is... that I find the denmominational Church to be full of people whose inner vision chimes with the culture-friendly vision of Emergent, but wears a slightly different set of clothes. One of the reasons I'd rather stay in my 'proper job' than start a cool church is that I think these connections are, in the long term, vital to the survival and growth of the whole church. Emerging Church in the UK often doesn't realise or acknowledge that it is largely dependent upon the traditional church structures and resources for its survival. (but that must be the subject of another post...)

Nice talking. Are you greenbelting again? Hope to catch up with you.

 
At May 29, 2004 at 1:07 PM, Blogger Steve said...

Great post! I have been thinking similar thoughts for awhile now. It's interesting how often I read a blog post and it articulates what I am thinking and feeling!

I spoke at our high school's baccaleaurate program Wednesday night and stated that America is a post-Christian nation and in the broader culture headed the way of post-Christian Europe. Needless to say, that in our small, dying, rural, modern town with small, dying, sidelined churches this freaked people out. Circle the wagons!

Hopefully someday soon this information will not freak people out and cause them to reminiecse about the good old days but rather inspire people to search for those new wine skins!

 
At May 30, 2004 at 11:33 AM, Blogger Lisa said...

Another twist to consider here is what religious sociologists call the GOD GAP. In the US, about 40% of folks say they go to church - we've been at that level for almost 20 years. When reserachers actually count people in the pews, the number is actually more like 20%. This 20% gap can be seen as a manifestation of folks who are cultural xians, who equate church attendance with the concept of being a good person.

In the UK, NZ & Oz, this GOD GAP does not appear.

 
At May 31, 2004 at 6:28 AM, Blogger Dave said...

And the reason that the God gap does not appear in New Zealand is that 40 percent of New Zealanders do not go to church. I`d be surprised if it is 20 percent. However some churches are more about programmes than people. The mainline deonminations are shrinking and the little non denominations churches are growing - mainly penticostal -types. There is a growth of para-church organisations and many respected leaders are from such organisations.

Those who go to cultures outside the church are in a minority. Some are linked with churches - such as Spreydon Baptist in Christchurch - and are making a difference, and are impacting society. Christendom has been long dead in NZ, but I think it is the Aussies who are impacting culture to a greater sctent in the emerging way.

For now, why can't things like emergent conventions, mayhem etc take a back seat to doing stuff in the coal face. I've never heard of emergent conventions in NZ or Aussie, but I have been to some seminars that discuss impacting the culture which are not much more than talk-fests.

In New Zealand, the fastest group of Christian growth is those who no longer go to church every week. I know. I`m one of them. These are the very people who are also more likely to impact the culture. Most Christians who go to church regularly don’t appear to have too many close secular friends.
Too busy hanging out with Christians, I guess. I must be the only Christian blogger I know of whose closest friends, on the whole, are not Christians.

Anyone else?? Email me. Davec@globe.net.nz

 
At May 31, 2004 at 8:41 AM, Blogger djchuang said...

While I don't have exposure to both US and UK churches, I do resonate with Jonny and Gareth's observations (perhaps my perspective helps, as a non-white Asian, in a evangelical mainstream dominated by white male suburbanites).. indeed, the US Evangelical church is its own force to be reckoned with, even the political wonks have picked up on that - a recent PBS Frontline special, titled the Jesus Factor [videos streamed online at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jesus/president/] gives compelling statistics of how Evangelicals have been brought into the American political system.. and with all the infrastructures and institutions now established in the US, it is indeed a career path and professional clergy thing, only enhanced by the development of the megachurch in the past 20 years [which has merged the best of American entrepreneurism, franchising, business/organizational development & strategy; with the evangelical brand of Christianity].. so that form of church is a force and entity to be compared/contrasted to, even if more organic church forms were to emerge with new wineskins.. people have too much exposure to a 'successful' American model of church, and not enough who are dissatisfied to go organic (tho' the dissatisfied may be slowly growing).

 
At May 31, 2004 at 10:54 AM, Blogger Andii said...

I must say that I largely agree with the analysis. I was over helping to lead a Len Sweet thingy in 2001 in Lake Junaluska and those of us there who were Brits came to the view that the US scene was different because it was so churched; which meant -from our perspective- that what seemed to be pretty radical in the US had a bit of a 'been there done that got the t-shirt' feel to it to us. It was all still quite churchy and felt very like the restorationist scene and still in a modernist mindset: band on a stage leading but a few [cool] graphic thrown in. Now things may have changed -you tell me. Anyway the point is when you've got a lot of church-subcultural baggage to carry which is held in place by plant and people numbers there is less ability and incentive to experiment. Necessity really is the mother of invention.

However, Maggi is right too. There are a lot of us who are employd by the established church who are experimenting. That may change; there are now biting financial constraints [my own job is about to disappear and I may join the ranks of the formally unemployed -though I have a yen for some 'out-there' John Drane-esque evangelism and who knows what may come from that?] there is less slack for the marginal experiment which doesn't have to show big fruit in 2 years. That said the AB ofC's looking to use historic invested resources to support the margin-pushing, potentially growing-edge type of stuff that I would like to give a go. ...SO perhpas it's still going on in the UK ....

 
At May 31, 2004 at 1:12 PM, Blogger huetenan said...

My negative comment or maybe just a warning on emergent church is that it's not or shd not be a fashion thing, e.g. putting down old fashioned music or styles of worship. The point wd be who are you reaching with the powerful and undiluted gospel. I'm getting a sense that with many it's instead a fashion thing about being cool. I truly dislike all forms of fashion, they make me insecure. Also EC is making me feel dissatisfied with my current church but it's the only church I have. These comments a possible follow on to Maggi's wise comments. thanks,
JEff (Palo ALto CALIF)

 
At May 31, 2004 at 2:42 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Aren't Jonny, Andrew, et. al. full-timers?

Rest of my comments are here.

--daniel

 
At June 1, 2004 at 11:48 AM, Blogger dave p said...

As someone who has spent half of my life in each place it seems like you're painting with too broad a brush. The points, while having at least some truth to them, come off a bit simplistic. In many ways you need to investigate the subtler differences, like "Why did the American version of Coupling bomb so badly?"

The church of England I knew (and still know a little now through relatives and the occasional visit back home) is an odd duck. Looking back I wonder how it survived financially - I assume there were vast amounts of cash stashed away somewhere because the weekly collection was typically barely enough to pay the light bill. The congregation's financial investment in the church was minimal, which then spilled over into every other area, except maybe the determination to keep the doors open.

In the US and Canada the Anglican/Episcopal churches don't have whatever background resources are available, and parishioners take their financial support of the parish seriously. The tax deductibility of charitable donations takes the sting out of it a bit, but you still have to be serious to give enough money to run a parish. BTW, the vast majority of my parish's expenses are for people, not plant (stupid water leak notwithstanding). Like Maggi, we're looking to do something that builds on and complements what we have.

Despite many opinions here to the contrary, the "modern" church isn't going away anytime soon. Not only that, if alt-worship is going to connect with church history, why should that exclude the current church?

Interesting debate, but there are even more dimensions to it than I can even start on. The next big one is probably the contrast between US non-denom movement with the mainline churches.

 
At June 1, 2004 at 7:44 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am Larry Bourgeois, Director of Old St George in Cincinnati, Ohio. I also founded a bookstore coffeehouse ministry called Pilgrim Place in this project... our link is www.osg.org I am still trying to get in the discipline of blogging and the people/bloggers I met at the Emergent Church conference in Nashville have really increased my appetite for this kind of dialogue and reflection. My first comment is for Rob.

1. Rob - people got on your case for stopping your blogging, I agree with them (though the same sin is not actually not mine specifically... I never started until now...) So you can do me the favor of encouraging me to blog - just remember your early days of returning to blogging (this past week).

2. Lilly - I have been telling my wife Lisa that she would really love to share part of your journey. I feel like you guys would really be soul sisters. Lisa is an absolutely amazing Christian who loves the Episcopal way of being spiritual, doing theology and culture and such. She is also a Wheaton Graduate (Philosophy and Biblical studies) and a Fuller Seminary Grad (Theology). She went on in Law at The University of Santa Clara (Jesuit) and became an attorney. The conversations we have had in almost 30 years of marriage on church history, philosophy, theology, culture... basically emergent church topics only before "EC" became the shorthand way of referring to such are soul friend/soul mate joy. I see that you and Rob have similar shared joy de vieux... I would like to share some times of hospitality to unpack that potential for realizing shared new ministry vision. Best way to contact me is cell phone 513.604.1542 and my email larry.bourgeois@osg.org or Lisa Wharton at lwharton@thompsonhine.com

 
At June 1, 2004 at 8:14 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am still trying to figure out how to register for the official blog commentator status, so I am commenting anonymously- I am Larry Bourgeois, new to the blog stuff.

Lilly and Bob's comments about visiting the UK in 01/03 and discovering how many of the ministry leaders were "outside" on institutional church structures.
I want to comment on the observation that US Christians are afraid of culture.

I agree that the mainstream "evangelical community" at large creates "industries of fearful sub-cultures" that are suppose to serve as counter-culture to prevailing culture... but they end up serving as incubators for pre-mature Christians who never grow up and enter mainstream society. I am most familiar with the CBA Stores (Christian Bookseller Association) that are founded to "resource" and "protect" the movement... they are a kind of anti-intellectual safe haven for popular Christianity that no longer engages or dialogues mainstream popular or academic culture.

In contrast over much of the last 30 years mainline Protestant culture, especially the so called "liberal progressive edge" has attempted at least to contine to define itself in conversation with contemporary culture. When mainstream Protestant and Roman Catholic Vatican II "missionaries" were part of the University community and counter-culture thorughout the 60's and 70's you had some great conversations taking place. During this time the mainstream "liberals" thought of the "evangelicals" as "fundamentalists" so not much dialogue was considered possible with them... and not much common ground was developed.

The 60's and 70's in American Church history were a battle ground for where the lines had been drawn from the Scope's trial a 30 years prior. My personal journey in Christ began in 1973 as a Jesus people "counter-cultural" pilgrim and I went through the Children Of God cult, the Assemblies of God cult-ure, the Wheaton and Fuller evangelical worlds... I speak from those experiences, reflecting now as an "Post denominational evangelical Episcopalian..."

I am very excited about the current conversations taking place between the "emerging church movement" coming out of Evangelicalism and the new voices (new to me at least) that are sharing the life changing reality that there are many voices within traditional mainstream protestantism and Catholicism that would openly accept the "new findings" of this movement. I would suggest however, there might be a caveat concerning that acceptance. I will share that in another blog comment.

 
At June 1, 2004 at 8:37 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

A comment about "Emergent Church reality" outside the emergent church world (the mini-noosphere broadcasting from Wheaton and Pasadena?) I love Wheaton, and Willow Creek, and Vineyard stuff. I also think it is rather odd that movements like the Church of the Savior in Washington DC (Servant Leadership School, Gordon Cosby, Elizabeth O'Connor etc) are "newly discovered" by the EC community when the movement is 50 years old. The same is true with Thomas Merton and his Abbey... the leading Rock musicians and culture around the peace movement and the 60's stuff were reading Merton stuff and visiting with brother Tom and his cabin. I have thrown myself into Vineyard "Formation" reading lists for young pastors and staff over the past few months... because one of our staff persons husbands is new to a big Vineyard pastoral formation program. The leading "spokespersons" for the pastoral formation library / resources seem to be shall we say "borrowing" from earlier Christian reflections. Frazee's Connecting Church pretty much describes what Christian community was doing when I was a young Christian 30 years ago (intentional community, Reba Place, the Fellowship of Reconciliation, Jesus People USA and the rest) and what many Roman Catholic Parishes were like a generation before, or the mainline protestant aggrarian fellowships were like... so it is a return not a new emergence. When I return from a religious book show in Chicago this week I will try to get back on track with some commentary about where I think the EC community is borrowing from and perhaps "not footnoting openly.
One last one though. The "Wild At Heart" bestseller perhaps amazed me as much as any lately... it borrows from the mainline new age community and secular psychological-spiritual mainstays of the 70's and 80's (Sam Keen, Robert Bly... check the footnotes out..). My point here is that I think those authors have a lot to say to contemporary spiritual seekers(and Christians of all kind should become more familiar with them...) In fact Pilgrim Place bookstore that I founded has over 10,000 authors like them! The important point I want to emphasize is that most pastors in evangelical churches would not be comfortable preaching from those authors themselves... however it suggests to the sheltered community that they talk at that "they are reading those authors because they are strong and intelligent and in the spirit... or any number of other things... When in fact they have just borrowed someone elses citations and never come close to one of those books in most cases. The truth test is what is allowed in the mainline CBA stores. Do you find McClaren's books promoted, Merton?, or even 40+ Lewis Books?
Would you find a David Tracy Blessed Rage for Order book that I used in Theology class 30 years ago at Fuller Seminary? ...that actually does a great job of capturing the seemingly eternal infernal struggles between fundamentalism at heart and liberalism at heart... Original source books on Christ and Culture like HR Niebuhr. As I have started to compile biblographical listings to expand our "EC" related titles in our bookstore I have been reminded that virtually ALL of the foundational books that mean the most to leading EC thinkers (the guys that do the workshops at the conferences... what they are reading...) would not be permitted or openly approved at most of the so called "Christian Bookstores". What does it say that these authors are more at home in the so called "secular world" bookstores, and that people expect to find them there, and that a whole conversation is taking place in broad band, mainstream "spiritual culture" that most Evangelicals fear entering into conversation with... because it is liberal, new age. Kudos to people like Brian McLaren that are openly calling the evangelical church world to its responsibility to at least listen to the questions that are being asked in the spiritual marketplace... and then perhaps not speaking quite as quickly as might be done from their captive pulpits.

 
At June 2, 2004 at 9:11 AM, Blogger Dan Kenneth Phillips said...

Excellent blog. I am amazed at what "Jack's Barbeque" causes people to do ! Love that BBQ.... And there is some truth to the fact that Merton, Keen, and others do have a historic perspective that is still a "renewing experience" to each of us. Thanks for the Blog. Something to think about.

 
At June 5, 2004 at 5:54 PM, Blogger Rachelle said...

Hey Rob!

I think I'm from the UK! (Cool, I always wanted to be a Brit!) ThPM is trying to get away from ALL of the traits you listed as "U.S." traits (and I think we're actually doing it.) I find it hard to understand how you can be postmodern and hold on to things like models of success that involve counting b.i.c. (Butts in Chairs) and a for-sure full-time paid staff. But I'm trying to keep an open mind. I've met a lot of traditional pastors trying to figure out this postmodern thing, and I want to find a way to offer them respect and support as I watch them try to "turn the supertankers" and get their traditional big churhes to make the move towards the reality of the postmodern/neopagan culture. (And by big I mean anything over 30 or so.)
I agree with Karen (hi Karen!) that the few postmodern-type conferences I've attended (v. few) are still trying to communicate in modern terms. It's like saying "We want to learn about African American culture. But could you please come to our church, and sing our songs, and teach in our style. But we really do want to learn about your culture..." I don't think it really works that way. If traditional churches really want to understand postmodernism they need to immerse themselves in it more...at least for say, three days at a conference that is really a pomo party. Maybe we could throw something like that and they could wear those little translator earpieces like they use in the United Nations or something....:-)
One of the things that keeps the hardcore pomo folks out of the limelight, and therefore out of the teaching core, is that we are small, insignficant in number, and doing really culturally specific things. (Oh, and also we aren't paid so we don't have travel budgets.) Who even knows who we are, or that we are even out here? (I mean, those of us who are doing the UK version of the pomo thing.) So what happens is, the people who have the voice are maybe the bigger, paid voices and not v. many of them really have a deep pomo zietgiest. Or maybe they are pomo, but only in one way.. a way that I, right now, kind of think of as pomo-lite --a sort of bridge world between postmodernity and modernity. (But I'm fully aware that could be just really snobby and I'm trying to assess my thinking on this and let go of some of my prejudice which says only on type of postmodern person has the corner on the pomo market.)

Well, there's my fifty cents. Now you can all tell me how I'm wrong. :-)

Rachelle

 
At June 6, 2004 at 11:47 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

rob
you have a booming voice and personality in person- its good to see the same thing happening on the blogosphere.

Good thoughts and you have people thinking.thanks for taking a risk.

Andrew Jones

 
At June 6, 2004 at 2:22 PM, Blogger Jedi said...

Comparing the U.S emerging movement and the U.K emerging movement is like trying to compare apples and oranges. Apples will never be oranges in 15 years. The american church is like a train . . . you can change cars, but you will never get off the track. The U.K. church is more like a car driving around the city. The passenger can grab the wheel at any time causing the the car to veers down a side road.

 
At June 6, 2004 at 2:48 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi, this is great conversation going on here.

I'm Dan (had to sign in anon) http://www.tshin.com/~dan, Chinese-Canadian Christian from an evangelical background. I've been wondering (and even trying) some ways of new-wine skins. My tribe (Toronto-area Chinese-Christians) are yet another interesting group of people with our own characteristics - it is very much close to the American-style evangelicalism.

There are a few voices emerging from our tribe (quite large - with about some 200+ Chinese churches in the Greater Toronto Area) coming to face these issues. The churches are still growing, but there is much pressure to remain with status quo. (I wrote about it in this post: "Chinese-Canadian-Christian priorities")

I echo djchuang's observations and his feelings of frustration. It's pretty dangerous to even think of new wine skins.

On another note, I've just contributed some links and resources to the Canadian Catholic Campus Ministry, as some of their leadership are thinking of starting some sort of resource about/for "Gen-X" stuff and people. I'm really interested where this will lead them. Still there is not much of a bridge between the evangelical and the Catholic communities - never mind between the Chinese-Canadian (evangelical) ones and the Catholics.

On yet another note, as I'm living in Bangkok now, the challenges of church, faith, spirituality, etc. are showing how "old wineskins" (North American style evangelicalism) are falling short here - both for Christians and non-Christians alike - with great consequences. From a recent missiology conference (SEANET), I sense that new-wineskins are very much needed here. I hope that the new Thai apprentice-disciples won't have to emerge from old-wineskins - but will jump over the trappings from traditional evangelicalism (and whatnot) as they move towards Christ. But many Thai churches seem to grasp tightly onto American evangelical forms.

We've got a small EC conversation group going here (mostly expats right now), and are looking for more voices and people with whom to walk the journey. Drop me a line (dan [at] tshin [dot] com), if you're local or if you're just passing by.

 
At June 7, 2004 at 4:08 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Lilly and Rob and Blogonians. I just got back from Chicago spending three days at the Religious Book Trade Show. I have been attending that show for the past 10+ years and it is a great annual pilgrimage to be with lots of religious booksellers, authors, and people who care deeply about ancient-future stuff... to use Bob Webber's phrase. Since I don't know how to navigate the blog world yet, but I am eager to learn quickly because I am starting to really enjoy the sharing that I am discovering. I sort of imagined that I would post my thoughts, "publish" to the blog editor and someone would cut and paste some of my highlights, not my entire text. Since I like to talk a lot, and blogging sort of plays into that disease... I will have to watch it. Just so Cincinnati folk get an update on Pilgrim Place Bookstore, or EC folks coming through Cincinnati on their various journeys. We have over 10,000 titles of great theology, spirituality in the Christian/ecumenical tradition... A wonderfully rich collection. I also just picked up more than 1,000 new titles at the Chicago show of new stuff (I bought the entire SPCK booth (Anglican spirituality, theology etc), as well as lots of other great stuff. I look forward to meeting folks that are part of this blog and other linked sites as they visit our wonderful project 0ld St George, what we call "a great good place for community and spiritual renewal..." Check it out. www.osg.org if you have not already. We could use some help making our website more attractive but our project itself is richly blessed in grace.
Larry Bourgeois (Director of Old St George and Pilgrim Place bookstore/coffeehouse).

 
At February 6, 2005 at 1:41 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Brother in Christ,
Greetings to you in the most precious and mighty name the King of Kings, Light of theWorld
And Our Saviour Lord Jesus Christ. First of all, I am telling Praise the God . Because our God
has given a wonderful opportunity to Share Something about my Ministry Activities with you.

My name is CH. SAMUEL. By birth I am belonging to a humble Christian Family.I am a Social
Worker and Pastor. My age is 42 years. From the year 1999 I was regularly attend to the Church.
The Holy Bible says “ Horvest is plentiful but the Labourers are few. Every christian must sacrifice
himself to do something of Gods will. So, I have inspired by the Lord Jesus . Then I was taken
Baptism in the year 2000 I realised Then I have decided to conduct the Gospel work , Church
Planting and Orphanage. From 1989 to 2000 I am conducting only the Social work. From 2001
onwords only Iam conducting Gospel work , Church Activities , Orphanage and Social work.

ARDS MINISTRY:
I have started an Indipendent Non-Denomination Church in the year 2001. The Holy Bible says,
“ Go into all the world and Preach the Gospel to the whole creation “ Mark 16:15. My ministry
name is ARDS . ( ADARSHA RURAL DEVELOPMENT SOCIETY ) It is a Christian Organization .
It works as Social service, Education, Orphanage, Christian Faith and Gospel work.
I am conductilng the Gospel work and Church work among Hindu people. My Ministry
Has no any Denominational Affiliation. And I have no any kind of Support from any where
( Abroad and India ). My church Members are poor and daily wage labourers. And I have no
Permenent Church Buildings. Right now I am conducting Church Services in Thatched House.

Now the the Hindu people and Fishermen Community people are accepting our Lord Jesus Christ
As their Real Saviour. Now they are Baptizing. It is one of kind of Blessing for us on our dedicated
Daily Prayers. I visit surrounding villages in a month to proclaim the Gospel. Our Ministry aim is
To visit every nook and Corners of Surrounding villages, Door to door campaign and Promote the
Gospel to every perishing Souls. Really I hope to see great deal of Harvest yields in the coming days.
At present I have an Indipendent and Nondenomination Church in remote rural & costal village .
So, I earnestly wish for your Fellowship. If possible then only provide your kind Help for the Church
Pastor. We need your encouragement and Support to my Gospel work and Orphanage.

ORPHAN CHILDREN HOME:
I was inspired by the Lord Jesus Christ. Then I have started an Orphanage. Name is ARDS Orphan
CHILDREN HOME in the year 2002. When I was started the Orphanage with 5 Children only.
Gradually the number of Orphan Children has been existing up to 25 Orphans in the name of Lord
Jesus. So, At present ARDS Ministry is conducting the Orphanage for 25 Orphan Boys.
Our ARDS Orphanage has no Permenent Building. Right now the Orphanage is in a Rented Building.
When we found them, they were in very pathetic condition. Because in the Holy Bible our Lord Jesus
Christ said “ whoever receive such a little child in my name, receives with me” Luke 9:48.
We have provide for the Orphans Cloths , Feed them twice a day and one time Brakfast, Shelter to live,
Send them to school and buy Educational Material and also pay the Orphan Children Medical Bills.

For this children home maintinance I depend on Tithes and Offerings of my Church Members and we are
Collecting small Donotions from Friends and generous people. But now the local people are not willing
to give the Donations Continuously.Because Now-a-days prices have gone up so high. That a common man
cannot Reach them. In such a condition we are not able, not in a position to feed the Orphan Children and
Unable to fulfill their basic needs properly.If we forsake them to their fate, their previous Lives will ruined.
In these situations we approach you for your kind Charity and Generosity to wipe out the continual Stream
of tears on the Orphan Children t ender Cheeks and fill their little bellies wit A little food. The Holy Bible
says “ To visit orphans, widows in their affiction and to keep oneself unstained from the World”. James 1:27.

For that reason I humbly requesting you and Appealing you please pray and encourage to our Ministry
And Orphanage. Please Help us in this way. I have no other channel except You. I entirely depend on
your kind and Sympathetic involvement. The Holy Bible says “ God Loves a cheerful giver “ II corin 9;7

I am searching for Sympathitically, Charity mainded Persons to involvement in the needs of Orphanage.
I humbly requesting you please pray and take soon kind action and send your Lovely, Sympathitic Gifts
And Kind Gifts to this Orphanage in the name of Lord Jesus Christ . If possible please Support for my
Orphan Children Home. “ Any kind of Smaller Support/ Help/ Invelvement will much be Appreciate And
God blessing for You and Your Family. I humbly requesting you please pray for our ARDS Ministry and
Our ARDS Orphan Children Home. Iam waiting for your Kind Involvement. Now Iam Closing with prayer.
Thanking you in the name of our Saviour Lord Jesus Christ.

Yours in His Services,
Bro. CH.SAMUEL
DIRECTOR - ARDS MINISTRY
Daggumalli vari street, BAPATLA – 522101,
Guntur District, A.P,INDIA.
Phone No: +91-8643-223059 ,
E-mail : keziahsam@hotmail.com / ards_samuel@yahoo.com

 
At February 6, 2005 at 1:43 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dear Brother in Christ,
Greetings to you in the most precious and mighty name the King of Kings, Light of theWorld
And Our Saviour Lord Jesus Christ. First of all, I am telling Praise the God . Because our God
has given a wonderful opportunity to Share Something about my Ministry Activities with you.

My name is CH. SAMUEL. By birth I am belonging to a humble Christian Family.I am a Social
Worker and Pastor. My age is 42 years. From the year 1999 I was regularly attend to the Church.
The Holy Bible says “ Horvest is plentiful but the Labourers are few. Every christian must sacrifice
himself to do something of Gods will. So, I have inspired by the Lord Jesus . Then I was taken
Baptism in the year 2000 I realised Then I have decided to conduct the Gospel work , Church
Planting and Orphanage. From 1989 to 2000 I am conducting only the Social work. From 2001
onwords only Iam conducting Gospel work , Church Activities , Orphanage and Social work.

ARDS MINISTRY:
I have started an Indipendent Non-Denomination Church in the year 2001. The Holy Bible says,
“ Go into all the world and Preach the Gospel to the whole creation “ Mark 16:15. My ministry
name is ARDS . ( ADARSHA RURAL DEVELOPMENT SOCIETY ) It is a Christian Organization .
It works as Social service, Education, Orphanage, Christian Faith and Gospel work.
I am conductilng the Gospel work and Church work among Hindu people. My Ministry
Has no any Denominational Affiliation. And I have no any kind of Support from any where
( Abroad and India ). My church Members are poor and daily wage labourers. And I have no
Permenent Church Buildings. Right now I am conducting Church Services in Thatched House.

Now the the Hindu people and Fishermen Community people are accepting our Lord Jesus Christ
As their Real Saviour. Now they are Baptizing. It is one of kind of Blessing for us on our dedicated
Daily Prayers. I visit surrounding villages in a month to proclaim the Gospel. Our Ministry aim is
To visit every nook and Corners of Surrounding villages, Door to door campaign and Promote the
Gospel to every perishing Souls. Really I hope to see great deal of Harvest yields in the coming days.
At present I have an Indipendent and Nondenomination Church in remote rural & costal village .
So, I earnestly wish for your Fellowship. If possible then only provide your kind Help for the Church
Pastor. We need your encouragement and Support to my Gospel work and Orphanage.

ORPHAN CHILDREN HOME:
I was inspired by the Lord Jesus Christ. Then I have started an Orphanage. Name is ARDS Orphan
CHILDREN HOME in the year 2002. When I was started the Orphanage with 5 Children only.
Gradually the number of Orphan Children has been existing up to 25 Orphans in the name of Lord
Jesus. So, At present ARDS Ministry is conducting the Orphanage for 25 Orphan Boys.
Our ARDS Orphanage has no Permenent Building. Right now the Orphanage is in a Rented Building.
When we found them, they were in very pathetic condition. Because in the Holy Bible our Lord Jesus
Christ said “ whoever receive such a little child in my name, receives with me” Luke 9:48.
We have provide for the Orphans Cloths , Feed them twice a day and one time Brakfast, Shelter to live,
Send them to school and buy Educational Material and also pay the Orphan Children Medical Bills.

For this children home maintinance I depend on Tithes and Offerings of my Church Members and we are
Collecting small Donotions from Friends and generous people. But now the local people are not willing
to give the Donations Continuously.Because Now-a-days prices have gone up so high. That a common man
cannot Reach them. In such a condition we are not able, not in a position to feed the Orphan Children and
Unable to fulfill their basic needs properly.If we forsake them to their fate, their previous Lives will ruined.
In these situations we approach you for your kind Charity and Generosity to wipe out the continual Stream
of tears on the Orphan Children t ender Cheeks and fill their little bellies wit A little food. The Holy Bible
says “ To visit orphans, widows in their affiction and to keep oneself unstained from the World”. James 1:27.

For that reason I humbly requesting you and Appealing you please pray and encourage to our Ministry
And Orphanage. Please Help us in this way. I have no other channel except You. I entirely depend on
your kind and Sympathetic involvement. The Holy Bible says “ God Loves a cheerful giver “ II corin 9;7

I am searching for Sympathitically, Charity mainded Persons to involvement in the needs of Orphanage.
I humbly requesting you please pray and take soon kind action and send your Lovely, Sympathitic Gifts
And Kind Gifts to this Orphanage in the name of Lord Jesus Christ . If possible please Support for my
Orphan Children Home. “ Any kind of Smaller Support/ Help/ Invelvement will much be Appreciate And
God blessing for You and Your Family. I humbly requesting you please pray for our ARDS Ministry and
Our ARDS Orphan Children Home. Iam waiting for your Kind Involvement. Now Iam Closing with prayer.
Thanking you in the name of our Saviour Lord Jesus Christ.

Yours in His Services,
Bro. CH.SAMUEL
DIRECTOR - ARDS MINISTRY
Daggumalli vari street, BAPATLA – 522101,
Guntur District, A.P,INDIA.
Phone No: +91-8643-223059 ,
E-mail : keziahsam@hotmail.com / ards_samuel@yahoo.com

 
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What's your most successful strategy?

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At October 26, 2005 at 11:38 AM, Anonymous search engine submissions said...

Great looking blog rob with excellent content. Where do you promote your blog? I think reciprocal linking is one of the best techniques.

What's your most successful strategy?

John
reciprocal linking

 
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Rob,

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As a Texan who bounced through a few mega-churches but could never really find what I was looking for, I now find myself at a Vineyard Church in London where I have lived for the past 3 years.

You have managed to put into very good and clear words a lot of the observations I have been making and thoughts I have been digesting over the past few years. So thank you - I feel that you have brought order and clarity to a lot of my disordered thoughts and feelings about the Church in the UK and US.

I am going to forward a link to your post to some friends who will also be very interested to read it.

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